Part II: Erfa Canada says new thyroid pills are fine: Thyroid Patients worldwide exclaim HOG WASH!!

Screen Shot 2014-05-26 at 2.41.49 PMAnother nightmare for thyroid patients who depend on Natural Desiccated Thyroid.

If you are new to this subject, 2014 saw new batches of the Canadian Erfa Thyroid come out, along with patients worldwide reporting a return of hypothyroid symptoms in the worst way…sooner or later. It was eerily similar to what happened with Armour thyroid in 2009 after Forest Labs changed the way the pill was made. You can read about this travesty with Erfa Thyroid on the following May 8, 2014 blog post page, here: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/2014/05/08/dear-erfa-canada-stop-nonsense-change-desiccated-thyroid-back/  It is followed by a massive amount of posts, comparing batch numbers as well as symptoms which have returned. It’s all a must read!

This morning, I received a message from a thyroid patient who heard from Dr. Knafo, the Medical Director at Erfa Canada 2012 Inc. He stated to her:

We just received all the retesting on the product and everything looks fine on our end. Did you have a blood test done ?

In other words, when you look at his last question, the implication is the same that has been stated to others: that the symptoms which she has seen return on the new Erfa Thyroid are about HER, not about the pills.

But we also now have an official announcement from Dr. Knafo, and is exactly what I feared would be stated: 

Dear All,

I wanted to thank all of you for your response and wanted to update you on the results we got from the retesting done by an independent lab. All the side effects reported were sent to Health Canada and all the retesting were done by a reputable independent lab.

We got about 70 patients reporting to us and there was 55 lack of efficacy reports. Half of the time we had the lot number and we could do an analysis of which lot were involved. There was NO relations between the batches involved and the side effects reported as many batches (50%) were trace back to our older production. Regardless, we decided to retest the batches that were involved (both from the older factory and new one) and sent everything to an independent lab.

There was no difference in concentration from one batch to the other. We did not change our formulation, suppliers nor our manufacturing technique.

We have over 10,000 patients in Canada only and reports from Canadian patients were much less in numbers. We cannot explain why many of you are experiencing those symptoms however I think the right approach is to take every single case separately and understand if there is no other variables involved. The number of reports are however consistent with the increase of sale (we sold 3 times more Thyroid in the past year).

The test results are available in our office for anyone that wants to consult them.

I hope this update clarify a bit more the situation and action we put in place. Please feel free to contact me anytime.
Regards,

Dr H. Knafo
Medical Director ERFA Canada 2012 inc.

And I want to make my response to Dr. Knafo public here:

Dear Dr. Knafo,

Thank you for the kind way in which you expressed yourself concerning the testing of the “new” Erfa Thyroid by an Independent lab.

I want to underscore to you that the reason Erfa has seen a three-fold increase in its sales last year is because Erfa used to be a great product for all involved. Patients had found it to be as excellent as the “old” Armour used to be for decades, plus they have always loved that they can do Erfa Thyroid sublingually. Additionally, many patients in Europe have had access to Erfa, which was important when knowledge about Natural Desiccated Thyroid is so pitiful in Europe.

Understand that I have worked directly with patients for 12 years as an activist for better thyroid treatment. Natural Desiccated Thyroid (NDT) changes lives and is proven over and over by worldwide patient experiences to be a much better hypothyroid treatment than T4-only. It even edges out the combination of T4 and T3 by its positive effects!

Granted, there are many patients who have reported not doing well on NDT over the past decade. But that wasn’t because NDT didn’t work. We figured out early on that there are two main reasons why NDT may not seem to work: a cortisol issue (low or high), and/or low iron. So patients learned that they must get the right testing for both of those, know how to read the results, and treat both before they will do well with NDT. You can read about all this here: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ndt-doesnt-work-for-me

And of course, some reported NDT not working because they were being held hostage to the TSH lab test, which we as informed patients know is the WORST test to be dosed by. You will remain under-dosed if a doctor goes by the TSH range. Read this: http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/tsh-why-its-useless

So because of all the above, I had to discern if all these complaints about the “new” Erfa Thyroid were actually because of any of the above.

But Dr. Knafo, I quickly saw that no, the vast majority were not. The bulk of complaints…and bad experiences…have been coming from patients who were doing wonderfully on Erfa Thyroid for awhile, only to see their symptoms return exactly when they started using the pills that were now being made at a different facility.

You stated in your announcement: There was no difference in concentration from one batch to the other. We did not change our formulation, suppliers nor our manufacturing technique. What is missing from that statement is that you have, in fact, stated to others than Erfa Thyroid did change the facility in which the pills are made. And as far as the “manufacturing technique”…patients clearly see a difference in the “new” batches. They are now slightly shinier, the indentations are deeper, and the new pills have a blotchy look that wasn’t there before.

The photo above shows the difference between the old and new.

Of course, we don’t know if what we are observing in the new pills explains anything. All patients DO know is that all-too-many of them are seeing their hypothyroidism return with the new Erfa Thyroid.

I think you are a sincere man, Dr. Knafo. We appreciate that about you. But…something has, in fact, changed in Erfa Thyroid. And to dismiss the growing overall body of patients worldwide who are not doing well anymore on Erfa thyroid is a bad move, just as it’s insensitive to state that that there are no other variables involved so thus, it must be about the individual circumstances.

Sincerely,

Janie A. Bowthorpe. M.Ed.
http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com
https://www.facebook.com/StoptheThyroidMadness
http://www.laughinggrapepublishing.com

P.S. Go back and read all the comments on the May 8th blog post linked above. It’s patently clear that the new Erfa Thyroid has changed, whether testing says otherwise.

UPDATE: thyroid patient S. compiled the following as of August 2015 and these represent expiration dates:

The good batches (no one reported them as bad, and one or more people reported them as good) are: 8/15 (reported by 3 people) and 4/17 (4 reports).

Some batches were reported as both good and bad by different people: 5/17, 7/17, 7/16, 2/17, 10/16, 3/15.

Some were reported only as bad: 11/15 (3 reports); 11/17 (1 report); 3/16 (3 reports); 8/17 (3 reports).

No reports for 1/17, 3/17 or 6/17 so these are unknown.

1,154 Responses to “Part II: Erfa Canada says new thyroid pills are fine: Thyroid Patients worldwide exclaim HOG WASH!!”

  1. Jane

    Good morning,
    Just to say that I feel okay on ERFA for many years.
    Never noticed a change…
    It’s strange to read all these comments.

    Reply
    • gina

      Jane – Can you please tell me what batch (date on bottle) you are currently taking of erfa? Does the bottle have the old label with lowercase erfa or the new bottle with ERFA? Do the pills have dark speckles.

      Reply
  2. Cathy M

    Good morning,
    It’s the first time I write a comment here but I don’t feel really comfortable with this complaint to Health Canada.
    I’m 68 years old and on Erfa thyroid for about 3 years now. Let me say that this product changed my life.
    I have blood tests done on a regular basis and everything is normal (well as much as it can be at my age!)
    I do have other health issues like cholesterol and hypertension. Some days are better than others but to say it’s all because of Thyroid… NO.
    Thyroid problems are so different for each person. I don’t think that these accusations about toxins or contaminants are relevant. I’m afraid that with this complaint to health canada you will do more harm than good for patients happy and healthy thanks to erfa.

    Reply
    • Janie Bowthorpe

      Cathy, it’s definitely a risk.

      Reply
    • Dorothy

      I definitely agree with you Cathy.
      When I saw these comments about a different quality of thyroid and even toxins, I was afraid for my health.
      I went to my pharmacy in Burnaby BC and talked for a moment with my pharmacist about it.
      He confirmed that he orders Thyroid for a long time now because many of his clients are on this medication. He received 0 complaints in years + He almost laughed when I talked about a toxin or a contaminant in the product. He said that we would know it directly if it was the case because symptoms would be (for every single patients on it) like a food poisoning (vomiting, diarrhea…)
      Do the person who made this complaint has these symptoms? Because if it’s not the case, she shouldn’t create rumors like this and try to destroy the reputation of a good product I use and love every single day of my life. (And I believe I’m not the only one). If I’m not feeling good on a medicine anymore, well I’ll change! I won’t ask entire Canada to change with me. This is nonsense.
      To end on a more positive tone Janie I really like your blog and all the work behind it. You helped me a lot Thank you!

      Reply
      • Anne

        Dorothy unfortunately for some of us we did have an immediate reaction very similar to food poisoning, which we have mentioned further back in this blog, and which is why I can never trust the product again, without knowing what has happened. Within half an hour of taking the first of a new batch I had a violent trip to the bathroom, the same happened the next day and the third day I nearly passed out in the bathroom, had palpitations and then extreme dizziness and lightheadedness for 24 hours. I can only liken it to allergy mixed with knock-out meds. Like you I loved ERFA and had taken it since Armour was reformulated in 2009. I’m having a difficult time now because I’m in England where NDT is frowned on by most doctors and endocrinologists and this has added to their concerns, so I am having to buy over the internet. I don’t think anyone reporting this to Health Canada would do so lightly. I can’t do so because it seems from the forms that only those in Canada can, but, in view of the fact that the ERFA company say there has been no reformulation (and I believe them, because why would they feel the need to deny this if there had been!) I think someone should be investigating at the level of the manufacturing plant in Spain to see what is going on there. That must be where the problem lies.

        Reply
      • Alissa

        I made a complaint to Health Canada and I’m glad I did and would do it again. Nothing is going to change with the availability of the new and far from improved ERFA unless they find a major problem and, if that’s the case, why anyone would want to keep taking it is beyond me. If I’m harmed by any product, I’m going to bring it to the attention of someone in a position to do something about it. However, the focus of my complaint was more about asking/begging them to approve other NDT options for use in Canada than doing anything punitive to ERFA. I did tell them my whole story with the bad reactions to not just the ERFA, but synthetic thyroid hormones as well which I also cannot tolerate at all so my options slim. I offered to supply samples for testing and they took me up on it.

        I’m not asking anyone to change what they are doing and I am not even close to the only one that had a problem, noticed a change in the ERFA, or filed a complaint – there are lots from other people in this adverse reaction database in the last few years: http://webprod3.hc-sc.gc.ca/arquery-rechercheei/index-eng.jsp. The pages and the many comments on this site would not exist unless there is a problem. I was not well for most of 2014 and could not figure out what was going on until I stumbled on the page on this site saying the ERFA had changed. My doctors ran tons of tests and the only thing that came up weird was that my TSH was super low (almost undetectable when I had been stable at .1-.2 for years) and my free T4 & T3 were also low – hyper & hypo at the same time. All of this is very well documented with abnormal labs, detailed lists of symptoms I gave to my doctors, and dosage changes to try to make it work better which is probably why they followed up on my complaint I tracked down some old stock and was back to normal in no time. I don’t have many health issues – mostly just deficiencies – Vit D, magnesium, etc. – which is all related to the thyroid problem The same exact thing happened this year after my supply of the old ERFA dwindled and I had to try a new batch. I went back and forth enough to know there is a big difference at least in my body. ERFA saved my life in 2008 and I was devastated when it quit working for me.

        I doubt it’s a toxin and suspect it’s a filler issue or something in the manufacturing process. Obviously, it’s something only some people are sensitive to. I avoid conventionally raised meat and dairy due to not wanting the hormones. antibiotics, or Roundup soaked GMO feed the animals are pumped full of and am really glad I no longer have to take a medicine every day that’s sourced from that kind of scary agriculture. When a frighteningly high percentage of feedlot pigs are ending up sterile and with deformed organs, how healthy do you think their thyroids are? This statement is a condemnation of North American agriculture in general and not directed at any particular company or product, except maybe Monsanto.

        Reply
        • gina

          Alissa – I too was saved by erfa for many years and now have a new bottle that tried to kill me. What are you taking now?

          Reply
        • gina

          I also find it very alarming that the lablel on ERFA states “made in Canada” and the company confesses it is actually made in Spain. This is false advertising and illegal.

          Reply
          • Janie Bowthorpe

            Gina, the desiccated thyroid powder they use is made in Spain. The tablets can be made in Canada. Nothing false or illegal.

          • gina

            The tablets are made at a new plant in Spain though… The thyroid powder is imported to Spain from UK??? per ERFA 2012

          • Janie Bowthorpe

            That could be right. But the bottom line is that it’s not a conspiracy. A company will say that something is “made by them” where they are located as a company, even if it’s put together somewhere else.

  3. Nohan

    Years ago after Armour changed, I read that a biologist, Dr Ray Peat said that Forest had taken a derivative out of the thyroid to sell separately and that was why it didn’t work as well. It’s just strange that both US and Canada top desiccated thyroid pills went downhill around the same time.

    I can’t find the quote, but found these

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18279024

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21215270

    I doubt an investigation by Health Canada is going put Erfa out of business, they’ve got a monopoly here in Canada, but I wonder if they are going to test to see that all the known derivatives are present in the pills….that would be interesting because the original desiccated thyroid worked 100% and now it doesn’t, so makes sense that something could be missing in it….that’s what it feels like to me.

    Reply
    • Suze

      I found the reference:

      “The old Armour thyroid, made from beef and pork glands before 1990, did contain other components that were probably valuable, but when T3 is absorbed by mitochondria it’s immediately changed into T2, so the synthetic T3’s effects can’t be distinguished from those of a mixture of T3 and T2. The company that now makes Armour thyroid started removing the calcitonin in the 1990s, to sell as a separate product.”

      Here is the whole article:

      http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/03/25/ray-peat-phd-on-thyroid-temperature-pulse-and-tsh/

      Reply
      • Alissa

        Thanks so much for that article Suze!

        It’s interesting – when I was asking Dr. Thorpe at Kripps how he would recommend my adding some slow release T3 to my NDT – how quickly I should raise the dose and how I would know when I’m at a good point with it, he could have been quoting this article. He made a big point encouraging me to use basal body temp and heart rate as the key indicators of correct dosing and to try to the ignore blood tests. I’m totally going to make a chart and track this closely as recommend in the article as I tinker with the dose.

        That article also got me thinking that I need to look at my adrenaline levels again – that always seemed to be more of the adrenal problem for me rather than cortisol which always checked out ok or just a little on the high side. I was thinking about adding some low dose hydrocortisone after a few suggestions, but that might be a mistake and perhaps I should look into other ways to reduce my adrenaline levels first or just give the little nips of slow release T3 I’m adding some time to do their thing. Despite meditating everyday and doing lots of yoga, saunas, soaking, etc., I’ve totally been stressing about running out of the old ERFA for the last few months and then after having the bad reaction again having to find something else!

        Reply
        • Nohan

          Hi Alissa,

          Kripps would have received my prescription today which my Dr wrote for 240 a day, but they are compounding at 120 a tablet with minimal fillers.

          Did Thorpe suggest the extra T3? I’ve been taking Synthroid at 120 and Cytomel at 25mcg for a couple of years and never noticed a difference….

          I’ve followed a lot of Ray Peat’s advice over the years and also had a email consultation and while the diet made a difference, I still feel like I’m running on empty by noon and need a nap before the kids get home.

          Have you figured out the cost per capsule?
          Thanks,

          Reply
          • Alissa

            Both Dr. Thorpe and a naturopath recommended the slow release T3 on top of the NDT and my endocrinologist wrote the prescription for it – he thought it was worth trying too. I can’t believe how warm I am, especially my hands and feet and my body temp is higher than it’s been in years. It’s very gentle and I find it a millions times better than Cytomel which I could not handle at all – I did it both with Synthroid and alone back before trying NDT. I had a really bad reaction to that Cytomel – it was like taking a weak and not very fun hallucinogen. My Dr. said I was probably manufacturing my own adrenochrome (of Fear & Loathing fame) due to too much adrenaline mixing with a burst of T3.

            Kripps charged me $106 for 100 125mg ($1.06/ea.) of the NDT – a little more than 3X what ERFA costs – and $55 for 90 7.5mcg ($.61/ea.) slow release T3. I’ll be getting some 15mcg capsules soon and they won’t be much more – it’s the filling of the capsules that costs most of the money I believe. I will have some insurance coverage for this, but I’m still waiting to see how much – it probably won’t be the 80% I had with the ERFA but they should pay a minimum of $50-60 which is fine – so far it’s totally worth it to me .

          • Janie Bowthorpe

            Alissa, I think i saw that you tend to make RT3 if you raise NDT. Did you ever figure out what you do that? i.e. have you done an adrenal saliva test and what were the results? Is your iron optimal vs “in range”?

      • Janie Bowthorpe

        I’m not sure how accurate this is. Armour was made solely from pig for a long time i.e. not beef. Also, not sure at all they have removed calcitonin.

        Reply
        • Alissa

          Hi Janie,

          I’ve had adrenal testing a couple times – saliva & urine – and those always test out ok. Cortisol & adrenaline a little on the high side, but not by much – still in range. Iron is another story – I have been ‘borderline anemic’ since puberty (same with my mom and my grandma) and that got worse and moved below borderline with the thyroid problem and treatment. It does not matter how much or what kind of iron I take, I can’t seem to get my ferratin much over 80 (ug/L). Similarly, I found I was majorly deficient in both Vitamin D and magnesium and I’ve been really working on both of those, along with the iron. The magnesium deficiency was revealed when I first tried to take vitamin D and had a severe bad reaction – chest pain and high blood pressure spikes when that is normally low – below normal. I had to do tons of magnesium – oral and transdermal – for 6 weeks before I could handle any vitamin D – now I’m up to 6000-10000 IU/day and brought the hydroxy 25 (nmol/L) levels from below 20 to a little over 80. I’m really trying to get both the ferratin and vitamin D at least over 100 to rule them out as causing issues, but I seem to max out around right around 80 for each – I just had those tested and my levels of both with went down or up just a little over the last 6 months while taking a LOT of supplements of a few different kinds to try to cover my bases – so discouraging. I thought switching to liposomal iron & vit D might help, but that didn’t make a difference, except in the cost! My body just does not seem to process either one properly and it’s really frustrating. I’m hopeful that adding this slow release T3 to the NDT will finally do the trick since I could never handle as much NDT as I thought I needed without getting all jittery, sweaty and feeling like my heart was going to explode – it really seems to be helping so far with none of the bad effects above.

          Reply
      • Nohan

        Great and it makes sense as to why it would work and then not work.

        I’ve always thought that and in 2012 I wrote Erfa with that question;

        Do you use 100% of the animal thyroid in your Desiccated Thyroid Pills or do you remove some of the components ?

        My answer;
        Thank you for contacting ERFA Canada 2012 inc. We use the porcine thyroid gland itself. Once it is dried we have a purification process that takes place (removing bacteria, etc..). At the end of the purification process we dose the thyroid hormones to check that it was unaltered.
        Dr Henri Knafo, MD, M.Sc, B.Sc
        Directeur Médical/Medical Director
        Erfa Canada 2012 Inc

        Wonder what the etc was…I guess the question now should be;

        Do you remove any of the calcitonin from the porcine thyroid glands?

        Reply
        • gina

          Nohan I have tried to contact r Henri Knafo and my e-mail is always returned as undeliverable. Maybe the purification process is different now?? I wonder what he meant by ” we dose the thyroid hormones to check that it was unaltered”? I guess he means they check to make sure its the same? Well it isn’t. The pills are gritty now when I chew them and they have darks specks that the old never had. Something is visibly different with them aside from the negative results…How dare they tell us nothing has changed!

          Reply
  4. gina

    I have a 4/17 batch bottle here of ERFA that I am afraid to try. It is listed above in the “good batch”section but there was someone who complained about this batch on the comments on the other page and they are visibly different. When I compare the new pills to the old ones they slightly browner, specled with tiny dark dots and are shiny. The smell from the bottle is different too. More medicinal than the familiar stinky smell we all know to well. The label is different as well. I am noticing that erfa used to be in lower case letters and now it’s capital letters…

    Reply
    • Suze

      Don’t be afraid to try it. Take it and be a scientist and observe the results. That is what we all have to do! That is what I had to do with every single batch or change in dose. In fact, though I’ve just been raising my dose of Synthroid and Cytomel to become closer to euthyroid, and am on the verge of being euthyroid every day, I thought of actually trying my old batches of Erfa again as an experiment. I mean the results are temporary if they are bad, and I would go right back to the synthetic if the Erfa still didn’t work. And of course my long term goal is to go back to Erfa eventually – a new supply. It’s been two years since the bad pills. Surely they would have fixed them by now – that would be my gamble if I got a new supply.

      Reply
      • gina

        Suze – what batches of erfa do you have? Are they the bottle with the old label or the new label? erfa or ERFA. I have a bottle dated 04/17 and it has the new label and it looks like the new pill on the right, in the pic at the top of this page. I tried it for 2 days and I was jittery and sick to my stomach. Also a terrible headache. Now my hair is falling out in clumps! I don’t know what to take??? I was perfect on erfa till they changed it.

        Reply
        • Suze

          They are in the drugstore bottles so I don’t know about the original labels on the Erfa bottles. I have just a few left of the non shiny older ones. I started these yesterday as an experiment (125 mg to start) and so far so good. These expire 4/17. I also have some 8/17- 30 mg tablets that I will use next if I feel OK on these. After being on Synthroid and Cytomel for 6 months I am doing OK but not perfect and I just wanted to give Erfa another chance and see if the Erfa worked for me this time because I am fed up with never losing weight no matter what I do. If you continue to feel sick on the Erfa can you ask your dr. about giving you another kind right away? Did you have a blood test to make sure it’s the right dose? The hair falling out sounds like a hypo thing I used to have.

          Reply
          • gina

            Your 4/17 batch look like the old pills? My 4/17 batch are the new pills. Shiny with dark speckles more gritty to chew… I have tried others all seem to have changed.

          • Suze

            My 4/17 pills are shiny and taste sugary sweet without the pork smell than they used to have. They have no dark specks on them and are very easy to chew, dissolve immediately and not gritty at all. They are the newer batch but I had no bad reaction to them before. The older ones were matte, not shiny, with a less deep indentation of the lettering. I still have a few in a plastic bag and they expired in 8/15 and I may take them next. Then I have a bottle of 30 mg pills that I am going to take and see what happens. They are 8/17. So far I am euthyroid on these Erfa pills of 125, exp. 4/17. I have only one left for tomorrow and then I will start the older ones.

          • gina

            Do you feel well on them? I have the 125 mg also…How long have you been taking them now?

          • Suze

            I only took the Erfa for 3 days. I felt well but I went back to the T4 and T3 today. I decided not to use the old 30 mg pills or the expired 125 mg pills. It was an experiment and I may go back to Erfa after I get a new prescription. I am sure the Erfa 4/17 is fine and I hope you are doing well on your pills.

    • KJ

      I am new to trying ERFA- Thyroid. I had a bad reaction to it. I am deeply thankful that I found this website and read about it because I figured I just couldn’t take dessicated thyroid, which is not the case. It was the ERFA brand that does not agree with me. My symptoms reminded me of when I took too much iodine and it would put me into more of a hypothyroid state, very cold hands, shivering to where I had to take a hot steaming bath to warm up, and a deep sleepy fatigue and pounding headache. I plan on trying some of the other NDT to find which works best for me, perhaps the Thyroid-S or Nature-Throid. I think it is important to let the company know when people have a bad reaction so that they are aware that there could be a problem. If they are a good company they will be happy to receive feedback and make every effort to produce a good product.
      The expiration date on my bottle is 09/2018, Lot: LF05828A

      Reply
  5. Nohan

    Thanks for doing the math…but Mr Thorpe phoned yesterday as my Dr had written
    240 a day, 60 per pill, so this first month is going to be pricey, but hopefully I’ll find a sweet spot in that month and then get the pills in a cheaper dose.

    I’ve been taking 125 of Synthroid with 25 Cytomel and still flat lining. I don’t have a weight issue, but am constantly battling fatigue, cold hands, feet and just the “planning” of dinner is exhausting, let alone cooking the damn meal, and that’s with usually a 2 hour nap and a constant supply of strong coffee.

    I think I’ll go straight on 120 of the thyroid for 2 weeks and take it from there and if need be, up and maybe cut up the cytomel pill, but damn, why do we need that along the pure thyroid?

    By the way, Mr Thorpe did mention it to me using the pharmaceutical word and I thought “later maybe” but I didn’t even know it was T3 which I’m thinking would be a slow release Cytomel. Right?

    It should be here Friday or Monday, along with orders of progesterone and pregnenolone. which I’ve been out of for awhile and frankly just too lazy and apathetic to re-order.

    It sounds like you’ve noticed some really positive changes in a week….that’s great, I’m feeling a little uncertain of dosing, as just don’t want to tank anymore than I am, nor go the other way…..but he stressed the importance of temperature and pulse, so will rely on that.

    Thanks for all your help, I appreciate it , as others no doubt will too.

    Reply
    • Alissa

      I think I have a problem converting T4 to T3 and that is probably why I’m loving the slow release T3 (liothyronine) on top of the NDT. Cytomel was too much for me even in small doses, but this sustained release stuff is very gentle and seems to just soak in without required much effort my my body to do anything with it. Like I said before, I found the Kripps NDT to be not as strong as the ERFA and I’m now up to 30mcg of the T3 on top of 125mg of the NDT and I am feeling better than I have in a very long time. Even if they are expensive, I think having he 60s the first month will be good and give you lots of flexibility to find your right dose. You might not need the T3 on top, but I recommend trying it – my hands and feet have not been this warm in over a decade and I can already tell a difference in my skin and brain power!

      Reply
      • Nohan

        That’s so great to hear. They weren’t here on Friday, but should be tomorrow.

        Are you saying that they aren’t as strong, but that you are getting better results than you were with Erfa?

        Are you noticing an increase in energy? Beyond the brain fog and the coldness, that’s my real bugaboo.

        I functioned best when my TSH was >1 which freaked my Dr, but later read something by Ray Peat, saying that was a good thing.

        Anyhow, will start with the 120 and maybe break a capsule in 10 days and monitor temp and pulse and add pieces of T3 later if I feel like I need it…

        I was doing the T3 only for a year 50 – 75 mcg, but that wasn’t doing it either. If this doesn’t cut it, I’m buying some pigs.

        Reply
        • Alissa

          125mg of the NDT from Kripps did not seem as strong as 125mg of ERFA and according to the specs it does have a little less T4 and about the same T3. However, I am now adding 30mcg of T3 on top of it and that is probably what is making the difference and making me feel so much better. I started out with just the NDT for almost a week and then started adding 7.5mcg every few days and I’ll keep doing that until I feel like it’s too much. I’ve been keeping my TSH below .1 for over 5 years so it will be interesting to see what happens with that – I’ll do labs in 2-3 weeks after I quit upping the dose.

          Low energy is not that much of an issue for me and amazingly I quit caffeine completely about 6 months ago after being a hardcore addict my whole adult life – fyi LOTS of magnesium and ginseng are the key to painless caffeine withdrawal. Since I started the new compounded meds, I have been sleeping better/harder and also have been waking up on my own before my alarm which is always nice.

          Reply
      • Angie

        Hi Alissa: I want to say that your posts are both intriguing and helpful. I was WONDERFUL on ERFA from 2009 to early 2014. I have tried several batches since then and have only had one that was any good. I have emailed Kripps for more info and am so hopeful that I can reach my old ERFA self with their product. Please keep us posted on how you are doing. I am “maintaining” with Nature-throid, but have not reached the level of wellness I had with ERFA. Thank you for taking the time to share your experience and to post the info with regard to Kripps!

        Reply
        • gina

          Hi Angie and Alissa I too am very interested in Kripps thyroid can you e-mail me please… MrMooples at America online.

          Reply
  6. Francis

    Does anybody have an endo that will help work with and prescribe NDT?

    Thanks

    Reply
    • Alissa

      I’ve been seeing Dr. David Thompson since 2007 – he’s an endo at UBC/VGH in Vancouver, BC. NDT is not his first choice, but he will prescribe it along with T3 only, compounded NDT, and NDT from the US if you are willing to cross the border yourself to get it – I dabbled with Armour back in 2014 when I had the first bad reaction to the new ERFA. He does dose more by symptoms than labs and has kept me with a low out of range TSH (but not totally suppressed) for years – I still think I was underdosed pretty much the whole time I was on ERFA though. He is good about ordering labs (with the exception of reverse T3 – he says he can’t order that one and have it covered) and does free T3 & T4 and antibody tests on a regular basis if you ask, and he also has been helpful with ordering vitamin D and different iron tests that have to be ordered by a specialist for MSP coverage in BC. He will work with you, but he takes a very measured and methodical approach. I find keeping very detailed notes of my symptoms and how they change with dosage changes complete with tricky excel charts graphing it all really helps – I’ve been building a good relationship with him for nearly a decade though so that helps too. He is getting kind of old and can’t be too far off from retirement. Hopefully, he will find someone to take over his patients with hard to treat thyroid problems which are probably the only ones he sees – if I had not had a severe bad reaction to Synthroid the first time I took it, I probably would never have gotten referred to him all those years ago. It usually takes 2-3 months to get an appointment with him even if you are an existing patient so plan ahead on that.

      Reply
  7. Ocarino

    I have discovered what “bad batch” can mean with ERFA concerning this one ” 09/2018″ LF05809A.
    The difference of potency is quite huge, all my hypo effects get back and forced me to stay on bed with very low energy 🙁 Cannot trust ERFA anymore..

    Reply
    • Dee

      It looks like ERFA is going to be able to get away with a sub-par product indefinitely.

      Reply
    • Cathy M

      Ocarino I’m myself on this batch and it works very well…
      I’m sorry you feel bad on it but for me nothing changed.
      Good luck!

      Reply
    • Suze

      If a brand new batch that expires in 2018 is still subpar, I guess they did not resolve their manufacturing problem. I had high hopes of getting a good batch if I waited long enough for them to correct things, but I think I’ll stay with the synthetic.

      Reply
    • Michelle

      This is the same batch I got that caused me to break out in hives over a dozen times I’ve attempted to take it. Something is obviously off but hoping they’ve resolved it by now so going to try one more attempt before I just give up and stick with NP.

      Reply
  8. gina

    Cathy M When did you get this batch and how long have you been using ERFA?

    Reply
    • Cathy M

      Hello Gina,
      I’m on Erfa for about 3 years. I bought my bottle of this batch in March.
      As I said it works like before for me. I think it’s important to say it.

      Reply
      • gina

        Cathy M do the pills in your bottle look like the ones or the old ones? Do they have that porcine odor?

        Reply
        • Cathy M

          They’re shinier than before and don’t smell a lot. I prefer like this honestly…

          Reply
          • gina

            Yes I’m sure we all would prefer not to smell the stench of the NDT. Except there is a huge problem. As so clearly printed on the Armour thyroid insert. Armour “is a natural preparation derived from porcine thyroid glands and has a strong, characteristic odor.” – Not any more! Basically it used to stink like pork. So did erfa. Everyone is noticing that odor is missing from the NDT’s across the board… It isn’t rocket science. No characteristic porcine odor = no porcine…
            The odor dissapeared at the same time as pig shortages, with the return of people getting sick on the newer odor free pills.

          • Janie Bowthorpe

            Again, that is false, Gina. The lack of the characteristic smell can mean they are using a different means to press the tablets and/or cover the tablets, or some change to the fillers. That has been proven before by the fact that chewing the tablets up to a pulp (of certain brands that appeared to change) has rid many people of symptoms. Nothing takes away that Erfa became problematic, and so did Armour after 2014. But it is not helpful to keep pushing that it means in black and white terms “no porcine”. Both problem occurred after the way the tablets are made changed.

  9. Tim H

    Hi Janie,

    I have an appointment to ask my doctor one last time to put me on Natural Desiccated Thyroid.
    If he does not agree I will find a new doctor that will prescribe it for me.
    In the event of him being agreeable what Natural Desiccated Thyroid medication would you suggest I ask him for?
    I have read almost everything on your site and blog about the lack of reliability of Armour and Erfa Thyroid.
    I would prefer not to get into a situation where something he prescribes does not work then we are back to square one.

    I am in Canada.

    Thanks,

    Tim H.

    Reply
    • Janie Bowthorpe

      Any of the others have done quite well for patients. 🙂 NP, WP or Naturethroid.

      Reply
    • Nohan

      Hi Tim,

      I’m in B.C. Canada and recommend desiccated thyroid from Kripps Pharmacy in Vancouver….they say that they ship all over the world…and they shipped it fairly quickly to me after my Dr faxed the Rx

      It comes from NZ and the best I’ve found. A woman named Alissa on the forum here was the one who graciously shared the information and I am indebted to her as this is like all thyroid should be.

      Check out her posts, as she certainly did her homework.

      Good Luck!

      Reply
      • gina

        Nohan please e-mail me about Kripps Thyroid. MrMooples at America online dot com.

        Reply
      • Charis

        Will you please send any information on Kripps? Thanks so much…..chariswerner@aol.com

        Reply
        • Alissa

          Kripps is easy to find: https://krippspharmacy.com/ – a google search of Kripps Pharmacy will bring it right up – they will ship anywhere. I am very happy with their compounded NDT and it’s the only place I could find that sells prescription porcine thyroid from New Zealand which means pasture raised pigs that are not fed Roundup soaked GMO feed. It is more expensive – 3X what ERFA costs in Canada (a little over $100 for 100 day supply), but after a couple months of nagging and sending notes from my Dr., etc. I did get my full 80% insurance coverage for it. Keep at them if your insurance company whines about paying for compounded meds – just keep insisting that they pay for it and keep bumping it up the food chain complaint/appeal wise. In Canada it’s no lie that there are no other options for NDT if ERFA isn’t working for you. It might be harder to get full insurance coverage for compounded NDT in the US where ether are more commercial options, but they should pay for at least some of it.

          I also am LOVING compounded slow-release synthetic T3 on top of it. If anyone suspects a problem converting T4 to T3 and/or reverse T3 issues or if you can’t handle as much NDT as you think you need when you feel like you’ve done all you can with the iron and adrenals, I highly recommend giving that that a shot.

          Reply
          • gina

            Alissa I don’t know why most of my posts are not being displayed but here goes anyway – I have been in contact with pcnzltd.co.nz New Zealand’s largest compounding pharmacy and they have informed me that New Zealand does not have their own thyroid powder supplier and that they actually order it in from the united states. So if Kripps is ordering powder from New Zealand then their really getting US thyroid powder… Did Kripps give you source info?

          • Janie Bowthorpe

            And US powder has all five thyroid hormones from the pig, by the way. Nothing is removed; nothing is synthetic. And it’s made according to the guidelines of the US Pharmacopeia. Important to lay that out there to avoid unfounded negative speculations.

          • Alissa

            I contacted pcnzltd.co.nz too – they are not who Kripps gets their thyroid from. They have another supplier that Dr. Thorpe does not want to share and I respect that. He provided the ingredients (which is just potato or corn starch and cellulose) and the T4 & T3 levels when I asked. It’s USP whole porcine thyroid powder so it has all the various hormones – nothing has been removed. It has slightly less T4 and about the same T3 as the US powder, but no lactose which is what made me look for an alternative and I did a lot of looking around and contacted pharmacies and compounding pharmacy suppliers all over the place. If you don’t have an issue with lactose, there is probably no need to look further than the American Labs powder that’s more readily available at any compounding pharmacy.

          • Nohan

            I had emailed a company in NZ called Agri-Lab with some questions as I was wondering about cellulose …here’s some excepts

            “We have Freeze Dried Bovine Thyroid Gland available as a powder (as well as many other glandulars which are exported all over the world including to Canada”.

            “Our products are bulk packed and not in a ready-to-use form – further processing, for example blending or encapsulation, and labeling, is required and is not the responsibility of Agri-lab”.

            Kripps Pharmacy’s is making thyroid that is equivalent to the thyroid that was being made by Pfizer (formerly Parke-Davis) before Erfa bought it.

            In my opinion, Efra is untrustworthy……after the sale, they could not get their act together to supply their customers and impacted thousands of lives as it was simply unavailable for months and months and then they produced a substandard product.

            You can get lost in the extraneous details, but countless people have been searching to find a thyroid pill that works, Kripps is one and there’s more.

            If Erfa isn’t can’t be trusted, just keep trying others

            Personally, I don’t care where it comes form, because the endgame is to feel good and I, along with Alissa have achieved that with Kripps compounded thyroid..

    • tyra

      Tim. I am not sure if you can get any other NDT brand but Erfa if you are in Canada. I may be wrong about that. I am confident that if anyone knows for sure, Janie would know.

      I do know of a few Canadians who are allergic to some of the fillers in Erfa and have had to get their natural desiccated thyroid med/rx compounded by a compounding pharmacy. I think they said they use lysine as the filler. I think you can also use acidophilus as a filler.

      If this is true (that your doctor can only prescribe or has access to Erfa in Canada), you might see if the doc can write you a prescription for ‘natural desiccated thyroid’ and write the dosage in grains instead of milligrams (gr versus mgs). One grain equals 60 or 65 mgs, depending on the manufacturer.

      There are a few vendors in Canada that carry Erfa as well as Naturethroid and Armour and, if your prescription doesn’t specify a particular brand name, you might be able to get them to give you the Naturethroid instead of Erfa? That is a lot of ‘ifs’.. but I just am not sure what you can work out because of being in Canada.

      Here is a link to a company that I dealt with for years and had no problem getting thyroid meds delivered to the states. They do require a prescription. You just scan and save your prescription and then send it as an attachment on an email that you send to the company after you order. You might call them and see if they can deliver Naturethroid in Canada. I know it sounds weird to question whether a Canadian company can deliver something into Canada but they often ship meds from their suppliers in other countries.
      https://www.universaldrugstore.com/medications/thyroid

      Reply
      • Alissa

        I don’t think you can’t buy any commercial NDT other than ERFA in Canada – I believe it’s the only one approved by Health Canada. You can get compounded NDT at pretty much any compounding pharmacy anywhere though – even if they don’t normally stock it, they probably will get it for you if you ask – every place I went would. Most pharmacies get the thyroid powder they compound from PCCC with gets it from American Laboratories – the only manufacturer in North America. All their NDT comes in a lactose base which was the main reason I went looking from something else and found the kiwi thyroid from Kripps that is in a cellulose & potato starch base.

        I’m still waiting on the results of the testing Health Canada is supposedly doing on the ERFA samples I sent them. I emailed a couple weeks ago to see if there was any news and was told my samples had be sent to their lab, but the guy I’m dealing with did not have any results back yet. He assured me that he will let me know the outcome of the testing, which can take a while, and I’ll post that here whenever I hear back from them.

        Reply
        • Dee

          I keep checking back to see if Health Canada has gotten back to you with those results. I don’t know about Health Canada, though – ie. trusting *their* judgment regarding what is healthy for all Canadians – just look at their latest campaign to have Canadian ground beef irradiated for longer shelf life. Makes me wonder about them to be honest.

          Reply
          • Alissa

            I don’t have a lot of faith in Health Canada myself and was shocked they even took me up on my offer to provide samples for testing – I really did not expect anything to come out of the complaint. It will be interesting to see what they come back with. I don’t know that I would truly trust their judgment and the T4 & T3 levels is probably all they are testing. I do have enough samples of good and bad batches left to have some other testing done, but I doubt I’ll bother – it’s pretty expensive and I’m happy on something else.

            At this point, I’m actually glad the ERFA quit working for me because if forced me to find something that works better than it ever did. I was in a very bad place right after a bad reaction when I made the complaint and I had been stressing about running out of the old ERFA I scored and having to try a new batch for a year and a half – I thought about it every day when I took it. I’m so glad that ordeal is over and wish I would have looked for something else sooner. I really think the compounding where you have more control over the ingredients and dosing is way better. I cut those powdery pills that turn to dust in half for years off and on depending on the dose I was taking – now I can get exactly the dose I want put in a capsule which is awesome with an added bonus of some extra vitamin C.

        • Suze

          Any word at all from Health Canada yet? I know that the bad batches of Erfa do contain some thyroid, but it is erratic amounts – I took them for several months (deliberately to prove that I was wrong and there was nothing wrong with them) and my free T3 went way over the top of the range, while the TSH and free T4 remained moderately low which is hypo, for me. I would dearly love to get random pills from all my batches analyzed to prove their inconsistency, but I’ve looked into it and I can’t afford to pay hundreds of dollars. Because this is prescribed you would think the pharmacists and doctors would be at least concerned, but they looked at me with a glazed, blank expression like “DUH? No one else ever complained about these pills…but then not many people take them….and no, we can’t and won’t analyze them.” It’s Health Canada’s job to analyze pills that made hundreds of people sick so where are their reassurances? I have looked at their site and they list several suspicious reports, but I don’t see any warning, recall or anything at all from them and this stuff started being reported more than two years ago!!!!!!

          Reply
  10. Angela Frye

    Problems with Nature-Throid batches now.

    Dear Janie: Am having some fairly significant issues with occasional Nature-throid batches. A batch that I purchased around 5-20 made me so sick I could barely drag myself around. And a batch (I had some leftover) that I had plenty left of from early Mar increased my heart rate 50% on the same dose that I had previously been on. I have been on/off these batches enough times to confirm the phenomena. And no, this is not adrenal or iron related. Appears something may be going on with RLC as well. Do we have a way to contact them directly? Don’t see one on their website.

    Reply
    • Janie Bowthorpe

      Having been observing and collecting notes from patients for 14 years, I do occasionally see bad batches. But it’s very sporadic. I would find their website and talk to them. (And please be absolutely sure that your iron hasn’t gone done, or you don’t have a cortisol issue. I see SO many say they don’t, but when I look more closely at their labs, they do)

      Reply
  11. Fran

    After 8 years on synthroid, past 3 months on 125 synthroid & 5 Cytomel, and never feeling well since being diagnosed I got my Dr to prescribe me NDT / Thyroid… After looking it up and reading this I am very scared. I just went and looked at my pills and they are speckled. I took my first one this morning. I already have terrible anxiety, brain “fog”, extreme fatigue and and a long list of other awful things I experience that I don’t need getting worse, I made this switch with high hopes but am now scared of what could happen! 😖 Compounded Thyroid may be better??

    Reply
    • Janie Bowthorpe

      Fran, this isn’t about moving to compounded. It’s that the NDT is revealing you have either a cortisol issue or inadequate iron. Read #2 here: https://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ndt-doesnt-work-for-me

      Reply
      • Fran

        Thank you, Janie.
        But why so many people getting sick after the denied change in Erfa Thyroid? I will ask my Dr to run those tests for me when I have my thyroid checked again in 4-5 weeks. I know my cortisol was checked by blood a while back and a basic iron test but I don’t know if they’ll check it by saliva. Hopefully. I don’t have the money to be ordering expensive private lab tests. I remember a few months ago I also asked him to run the two antibody tests associated with hashimotos and when it all came back he said everything looked fine… Does this just mean the Hashimotos is dormant?? I’ve been on the same dose of Synthroid since day 1, no jumping around. But it has to be Hashimotos that caused it doesn’t it? Happened postpartum…

        Reply
        • Janie Bowthorpe

          Fran, your first post didn’t tell me that you were on Erfa. I now see you said “Thyroid”, which is what the company calls their NDT. We got in the habit of calling it Erfa since just using the word “thyroid” could imply any kind of thyroid medication. lol.

          It is okay to see if it’s just a bad batch of Erfa. Some have experienced them for sure. But you will also want to rule out if it’s also that you have an adrenal or iron problem, too. We have to cover all bases, because being on Synthroid that long often causes both an adrenal issue and inadequate iron in a large body of patients which are now revealed by being on NDT.

          Reply
    • Nohan

      Hi Fran,
      Just wanted to let you know that I felt a transition period like that for the first few days and over the first month, I played with the dose using temperature and resting pulse, but now 3 months later, I not longer nap and feel wonderful.

      I also take progesterone and pregnenolone.

      Years ago, when I got my first prescription of desiccated thyroid, I was a mess and when I was leaving old Dr Derry’s office I said to him “Are you telling me that this pill is going to take care of all my symptoms?”
      And he said “Yes, in a month you’re going to much better and shortly after, you’ll be back to your old self”.
      He was right, but it took some time.
      Good Luck!

      Reply
      • Fran

        Hi Nohan, thank you for your reply. Do you mean you felt a transition period when Erfa changed? Or switching from Synthroid to Erfa? I’ll have to look into how to use temperature and resting pulse.

        Reply
  12. wideawake

    Just want to jump in on this convo. I just got the new batch of Thyroid and they def look different. Im very sensitive to any kind of meds so often I just bite off 1/2 and than only take it once or twice a week. My T3 and T4 are considered ‘normal’ now but I see more symptoms arising. I cant fall asleep or stay asleep and this is going on for months now. My eyes are drooping, lots of hair loss and dry skin. Got the whole textbook with the goiter, thanks to a doctor who told me not to worry about it in my 40’s because my numbers ‘were all normal’. So here I am, trying to do something about all this but so sensitive to all the meds. The first 3 hours in the morning after I take the NDT, I feel sleepy. Sometimes I just have to lay down. Sometimes if I take a whole NDT (30mg Thyroid), I feel good but cant sleep. Ive read through all this website a number of times and it sounds like a cortisol issue. Id love to just take the NDT and be well but its not working for me. Suggestions?? (I started taking NDT last year but not regularly because of the way it makes me feel)

    Reply
  13. Michelle

    I have been using Erfa since Armour was reformulated back in 2010 and LOVED it. When I first read about some bad batches I didn’t think much of it as I’d had zero issues with it. However, when I reordered in January of this year I noticed the pills not only looked different but I was having trouble cutting the tablets in half in order to get my proper dosage of 1 1/2 grains. The pills would just crumble. I’ve been doing this for YEARS so knew something was obviously off but still went ahead and took them. Within a few days I started getting really itchy along my collar bone and broke out in hives. I didn’t know what was causing it at the time and thought maybe I was having a reaction to something else until about 2 weeks later I put two and two together and realized it started right after I began the new batch of Erfa. I still had enough of my old bottle left to test out my theory and within a few days of stopping the new ones the rash began clearing. I tested it out 3 separate times and each time got the same reaction so I contacted Erfa after speaking with the pharmacist who said the company should know about my reaction. Erfa denied any changes other than moving their manufacturing facility from Belgium to Spain. She said they’d had several complaints about the change in the way they look but couldn’t figure out why because the formula was the same…. sorry but you don’t break out in hives for nothing when you’ve been taking the exact same meds for years with no trouble. I even brought in my old Erfa and the new Erfa to my doctor who agreed something had definitely changed based on the way they looked and now crumbled (also showed her the hives I developed). I stopped Erfa and my doctor switched me to NP which has been okay (first tried WP but hated that). Since January I’ve attempted over a dozen times to try to take this bottle of Erfa again for a couple days and every single time I start getting itchy and then break out in hives within about 3 days. I really liked Erfa best of all the NDT brands I’ve tried so kept wanting it to work. It looks like the complaints have died down so I’m going to try to order another batch and see what happens- really hoping it was a fluke and they’ve fixed the issue by now.

    Reply
    • Dee

      I think the complaints have died down because people have decided to just give up on ERFA altogether. I was also getting by on old stock that I managed to get my hands on after reacting to the new ERFA. A couple of weeks ago I finally ran out of my old stock and decided to give new ERFA yet another try. Since the pharmacist knows of my problems with new ERFA, she agreed to loan me ONE 30 mg tablet and ONE 60 mg tablet since I react to new ERFA after taking only one and know right away if there will be a problem.

      Both of the tablets look different than my old stock, but I decided to try the 30 mg tablet (the 60 mg tablet is so speckled, it almost looks grey instead of the usual white). I knew right away from the way the 30 mg tab crumbled (I take it sublingually) that there was probably going to be a problem. This time, though, after about 30 seconds under my tongue, it started to burn badly to the point where I had to spit it out. It was like I had taken a lit match and put it right in my mouth. The amount that I had absorbed would have been very tiny, but I still had a stomach reaction to it for most of the day. So I now know nothing has changed. I’m not even going to bother taking the 60 mg tablet. If it’s of any importance, the lot number for the 30 mg tab is LF04826A expiry 01/2018. The 60 mg tab is LF06221A expiry 11/2018.

      It’s so depressing and infuriating that a high-quality product has been ruined by whatever happened. I have a feeling there might be something wrong with the thyroid hormone itself because I tried numerous combinations of compound ndt in the last year, and didn’t feel well on those either. But yet, I have no reaction whatsoever to the old stock (different lot #’s and expiry dates), and did great on those. So, no, I don’t believe the issues have been resolved.

      Reply
      • Michelle

        That was nice the pharmacist allowed you to have one to try it out- that way you didn’t have to waste the $ on a whole bottle of bad meds. You are right it is SO frustrating that they would mess with a good quality product and something is obviously wrong. I still have two old empty bottles with 2017 expiration dates that had no problems. The one I had rashes from is Lot #LF05809A Exp 9/2018 so right in between the two you just got.

        I did go ahead and place a new order this week as a last ditch effort to see if they’ve fixed whatever is going on. If not I’m just going to give up and stick with the NP which hasn’t been bad but just not as good as old Erfa. The pharmacy confirmed they are shipping me a bottle with a 2019 expiration date so at least I know it will be one of Erfa’s newest batches. I’ll report back on what happens- really, really, really hoping it will work this time!

        Reply
  14. Reagan

    I have GOT to find something else besides Armour. I had to up my dosage already, and was feeling great. Then with my last refill, I have all my symptoms back! This is ridiculous!!! And it is SO expensive!!

    I’d like to try Erfa, but I’m scared I’ll be in the same boat as I am with Armour. Anyone out there using current bottles and it working fine for them?

    If not Erfa, then what should I try?

    Thanks!

    Reply
  15. Angie

    Just got my Kripps dessicated and SRT3 in the mail today. Will let y’all know how I do on it. It took a while to get the ‘script filled. I did have to call and follow up on an already submitted written order before Kripps got around to filling it. Once they did, however, it came within a week from Vancouver to Virginia.

    Reply
    • Nohan

      Kripps desiccated sure turned my life around…..took some time, but worth it …Good Luck!!!

      Reply

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