I am experimenting with adding T4 to my Armour
When I switched from Levoxyl to Armour on one day in July of 2002, the difference in my well-being was so stunning that I never looked back. In fact, I was so stunned that I started an internet talk group about natural thyroid hormones in August of 2002. I went from someone who couldn’t even sand a small wood project without being debilitated (Yes. Really. With a “normal” TSH and on Levoxyl)…….to someone who could eventually own her own store and stand ALL day. I am now on 4 grains, multi-dosed and sublingually, plus 1/8 grain at night. I have a free T3 at the top of the range, and a suppressed TSH.
Along the way, I’ve had to correct low Ferritin. Additionally, I’ve had to deal with some serious peri-meno issues caused by a plummeting progesterone level with a still high estrogen level.
All in all, my thyroid treatment with Armour alone has been a HUGE success story! I can work on my feet all day and wake up refreshed the next. And I haven’t needed a nap in years.
But…there has been one phenomena that has made be ponder. Namely, if I do several back-to-back days of busy activity, or, if I do something of high physical intensity in one day (such as climbing up to Delicate Arch near Moab, Utah), I don’t recover as “speedily” as my friends who do the same with me. In other words, they will wake up refreshed, and I may need another day to do so.
And the above has made me ponder. Is it due to cellular damage from being on the lousy T4-only treatment for 17 years? Is it due to a need for adding a bit more Armour when I do excessively physical activity? Is it due to my body’s poor reaction to entering the meno-phase of my life? Or, is it due to my mid-range free T4?? I do remember that Dr. Dommisse of Arizona would seek to optimize BOTH free’s in his patients. And, I’ve heard that a doctor in California is doing the same. And I’ve wondered: does the higher free T4 provide what is needed due to conversion for recovery purposes??
So…I have decided to try an experiment…adding a small amount of T4 to my 4 1/8 grains of Armour. Remember: Armour as pig thyroid is approx. 80% T4/20% T3 (as compared to the human thyroid 93/7), and several patients on Armour tend to only get their free T4 to mid-range…even with an optimal high-range free T3…and I’m one.
I’ve been on 25 mg. thyroxine for over 6 weeks now. After 4 weeks, I “thought” I’d noticed a difference. But alas, I am also dealing with the effects of my stressful entry into menopause. So, it’s hard for me to tell what’s going on with adding T4! I also haven’t done labs yet to SEE where I’ve gotten my free T4, but will be seeing my doc soon.
Bottom line: though I am reporting my experiment to the readers of this blog, I honestly can’t discern yet with clarity what positive effects it’s having because of my peri-meno issues. But that is not taking away of the possible benefits of getting BOTH your free’s towards the top of the range. Dommisse of Arizona states the following:
“The brain seems to need to receive thyroid hormone in the form of T4 as well as T3, and then converts T4 to T3 INSIDE the brain cells. e.g., Patients on the so-called Wilson’s T3-only approach get good relief of physical symptoms but retain their brain fog, memory loss, concentration problems, etc.. The other reason it is a good idea to have your “reserve” of the T4 thyroid hormone as high as possible (as long as that is without any adverse effects)- so that, if you miss a dose of T3-containing preparation, you can possibly convert T4 more readily to T3 than if the T4 level is not as optimal.”
NOTE: if you are new to using Armour, please note that I am NOT advocating that you pressure your doc to add ANYTHING to your Armour…yet. That can only complicate your goal to find your optimal dose. If you still have problems on Armour, it’s a strong sign you simply aren’t on enough, or have low cortisol or low Ferritin. Remember: I feel GREAT on Armour–need NO naps, have excellent energy, no weight gain issues, etc.
I have also noticed that some STAY on their T4 when starting Armour. That may not be a bad idea since it would help you bridge over, but it can also end up confusing the issue of where your optimal dose is down the line!! As a thyroid patient advocate, I have noted that those that use their T4 one day, and get on Armour the next WITHOUT the T4, generally have an easier time finding their optimal dose down the line without confusion. And do know that some on Armour alone obtain that high-in-the-range free T4. I am just not one of them.
UPDATE 1-22-07: I found out months later that my failure to recover well from activity was probably due to an adrenal problem, not necessarily a need for a higher T4. My adrenals were in the alarm stage–namely, I was making high levels of cortisol in response to stress in my life, so there wasn’t an adequate response for recovery after heavy activity. It wasn’t a need for more T4. I should have been supporting my adrenals with Isocort in situations like this. (If you have questions about your own treatment…i.e. more than a comment, do go to our Forums)
July 14th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
Oh, Janie, do I ever know what you’re talking about with the poor recovery from exercise. Whatever it is that’s out of whack, when it’s out of whack, I can have sore muscles for DAYS from the wimpiest bit of exercise. Is it just the thyroid - not enough T3 making it into the cells, and therefore the mitochondria can’t do their work? Is it an insulin-resistance thing? Is it an adrenal thing?
All I know is, that when I’m feeling good, I can exercise and have just a normal amount of soreness after. When I’m not feeling good, a 15 minute exercise video can leave me sore for days, to the same degree that I was sore after climbing a mountain when I was well!
And the worst thing? When my uber-fit H tells me I’m just sore because I’m “out of shape”. Grrrrr!!!
Ellie
July 14th, 2006 at 5:44 pm
I think when anyone has recovery problems, they need to answer to themselves a few key questions: 1) Is your free T3 towards the top of the range? 2) Are you adrenals strong, or are you giving yourself cortisol?? 3) Is your Ferritin optimal (i.e. 70-90)? 4) Are you going through any other stressors (like myself with not entering menopause like a lamb)?? And if you can verify all the above with a resounding yes, 5) where is your free T4? I say “potentially” because I don’t know yet whether raising my free T4 is the answer. Still waiting to see.
July 15th, 2006 at 8:12 am
Janie:
Thanks so much for your site! This info has been more helpful than the multitude of docs I’ve known. 15 months ago I learned my T3 was very low, T4 and TSH were okay. I was given Cytomel, lost 10 lbs like that (snap fingers). About 7-8 months later, here we go again, weight gain, tired, yada yada. Doc misread lab work (T4 was almost zero!) All he said to do was cut back Cytomel, obviously no results. Another doc gave me Synthroid, cut back Cyto again didnt even do a free T3. Not working. Went back asked for Armour. Started at 30mg, seemed too low. I increased (tripled oops) gained weight. Went back to Synthoid only. Nothing. Contacted first doc, he said he recommended Armour otherwise use Syntho with NO CYTO! What?!?!? Armour includes T3, why would you not incorporate Cyto WITH the Synto? I read your website, ding! Light bulb went off. Started including Cyto with the synth and guess what? Yep, lost 2 lbs, had a ton of energy, feel great! A little hyper so I think I may cut back just a little. My point is while these docs are “educated” and well paid so many of us are finding answers and treatment with the help of each other. People like you and others who are fed up with the yo-yo of these docs just pacifying us without listening. I’m with you, heck with the TSH, mine is only 0.031 but my T3 and T4 are back up and I FEEL good. Isnt that what matters? Thanks for your site, its a lifesaver to know we are not alone in seeking how to feel good—-no thanks to the “professionals”
One question: I’m taking 125 synt + 25 Cyto (multi-dosing) per day. If I venture back to Armour whats the equivolent dose and whats your opinion if it’ll work? I did gain when I was on it but could that be the affect of too much? Thanks again
July 15th, 2006 at 3:45 pm
Hi. I will tell you hands down that Armour is far better than even a synthetic T4/T3 combo. Why? Because patients who switched from the combo to Armour stated over and over that they notice a difference. How much to take? It’s all individual and there’s no way to give you an equivalence, because something about Armour is so much better. You gained while on it before because you weren’t on enough. For further help, please go to the Forums…and anyone else, please do the same if you need individual help.
Lots of moderators there ready and willing to help!
September 12th, 2006 at 10:05 am
There are reasons that armour and synthroid work on different patients. Armour treats primarily T3 and synthroid treats T4. If the T4 is low and that is the CAUSE of the low T3 then synthroid is the replacement to use. If the T4 is great but the T3 is low then Armour is the replacement. The only problem is that when you replace T3 you will eventually lower your T4 through what is a negative feedback system. Cytomel (T3) lowers the TSH way more than Armour thus Armour usually is better for replacement. You guys are totally playing around with your system and it is hit or miss. Armour is not right for all neither is Sythroid yet both have the place. I have thousands of patients on both and combinations are sometimes the answer. Be careful when experimenting with your thyroid replacement. It is always best for an objective person to be in control such as a Doctor or Practitioner.
September 12th, 2006 at 4:34 pm
Sorry, Robert, but your comment reveals you are very uninformed and failing to listen to patients. Synthroid does treat T4 because it’s a T4-only medication. But treating the T4 alone doesn’t result in adequate amounts of T3 from the conversion. We have learned from experience, Robert, that direct T3 is needed. And Armour is far more than simply “treating the T3″. Armour is everything one’s own thyroid puts together–T4, T3, T2, T1 and calcitonin. It gives back the whole spectrum which is lacking in a T4-only treatment.
And if some of those “thousands” of your patients are on thyroxine alone, you haven’t done your homework to find out how they’re really doing. Because bar none, every single one of them is going to have some symptoms of an inferior & inadequate treatment, including chronic low grade depression, or dry skin or hair, or less stamina than others, or weight gain, or difficulty losing weight, or high cholesterol…it’s an endless list, which you can also see on the page SYMPTOMS of HYPO. Because everything listed are recorded symptoms of patients while on thyroxine with a so-called normal TSH.
And Robert, to say the best objective is for a doctor or practitioner to be “in control” is frightening. It’s our bodies, not yours. We live in them, and we feel them. If a patient’s wisdom and intelligence about his own body can’t be part of the doctor-patient equation, it’s tragic. It’s akin to the thousands of thyroxine-treated patients who come into your office, feel like crap, and the doctor says “Sorry, your labs are in range. You’re normal”. i.e. toss the anti-depressant scrip at the patient and ignore obvious symptoms which reveal that the TSH range, and thyroxine alone, suck.
September 28th, 2006 at 7:49 am
Janie, I’m just cheering at your reply to Dr. Robert. Totally spot on! You are more of an advocate to us HypoT people than any single doctor ever has been, at least to me. Keep up your amazing work, spreading the word - you’ve helped countless people come to WELLNESS.
October 13th, 2006 at 10:24 pm
Hi Janie,
I am finding that my best thyroid dosage is a combination of Levoxyl and Armour. I am on 100 mcg. of levoxyl and 45 armour (15 3x per day) I wasn’t able to find “stability” on just armour and my free T4 was in the lower half of normal range. Once I got my free T4 bumped up into the upper half of normal range (I am currently 1.57 on a scale of .78 - 2.19) I started to feel MUCH better. It feels like the levoxyl gives me a solid platform to stand on and keeps me feeling much more stable with my energy and sense of general well being. And then the Armour keeps me sharp and happy. But I definitely felt more sluggish when my free T4 wasn’t making it into the upper range. The doctor also told me to take selenium to help with T4 conversion. I don’t think my current dosage is perfect just yet but I’m getting really close. I feel better than I have in years!
October 14th, 2006 at 4:22 am
Caligirl, as you continue working to find your optimal amounts, do remember that you want your free T3 to be towards the top of the range. If it’s not there, upping your Armour, and slightly decreasing the Levoxyl, will help. Glad you are getting close!
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:13 pm
I too am on a combo of sythroid and WEsthroid. I take one yellow synthroid and 3 grains of the westhroid which is like armor. I was on more armor but I was itching so bad I couldn’t handle it. I am an avid exerciser. I go to the gym and do cardio 4-5 days a week. I use to jog an hour a day. I want to lose the weight and I am steady but it would be nice to lose the extra 5lb’s. Thank you for the oportunity to express myself.
Becky from Washington
October 24th, 2006 at 5:01 pm
I just read all your comments and it’s good to know, finally, that there are others that have had the same experiences that I’ve had (ie. bad doctors, bad suggestions, bad advice, etc). All the comments are so helpful and I finally realize that I am not alone and that there are resources out there where people can help me get through this (and shake my doctor’s mis-diagnoses).
To Janie and her peri-meno phase: I recently read this on wikipedia under melatonin. I’ve been taking melatonin for months now and it has really helped me to feel rested and wake up not feeling as tired. In addition, I read this (hope this helps)…
Recent research has concluded that melatonin supplementation in perimenopausal women produces a highly significant improvement in thyroid function and gonadotropin levels, as well as restoring fertility and menstruation and preventing the depression associated with the menopause.[25]
November 7th, 2006 at 9:00 am
Hi all…First…thank you for all the great info I have discovered here. I have had a really bad summer trying to get my thyroid meds straight. I even went to Colorado to see Dr.(s)Lowe for metabolic fibro…I also have cfs/epsBarr/had Hep C for 20 years…did two rounds of treatment and have been non detectable for five years. Problem…when I did my first round of treatment the doc I was seeing sent me to an endo as my thyroid went hyper during treatment…the radiation (which we now know should never had been done ) fried my thyroid and damaged the rest of my endocrine system. I am now thinking my parathyroid is involved…while in Colorado, in July, way up in the mountains, I was able to get optimal sunshine…When I returned home to VA it was too hot and muggy. My vit D levels were so low I was suicidal. I was put on high doses of vit D and am still taking it…what I have discovered since is my cortisol is low…ferritin…am going to have checked immediately…but the vit D has helped my conversion of t4 so much that I went insanely hyper so I am now back on T4 only for now.
During my research I discovered that NO two t4 products are alike…and several of them… mainly generics…contain sodium lauryl sulphates which is a carciogenic as well as not metabolised in the liver. I do not understand how the FDA can let a drug company use a known cancer causing agent be put into a medication at any cost.
I have also found through saliva testing that I am estrogen dominant and I take a compounded progesterone everyday. I also have low cortisol levels which we are now watching. I have been to 8 different endos and none of them have come up with the same answer..now I work with my pcp and we are trying to keep my free t3 and t4 levels in the high range…we don’t pay much attention to the tsh. I did notice that the inactive ingrediants in synthroid are way different than any other t4 med…I apparently am allergic to one of them as my gums and liver became inflamed after three days…and it containes periodine???which could explain why I can only take 100mg of it vs 150 of levelthyroxine??? Any additional info is greatly appreciated.
Thanks for the wonderful info I have found here…I have been able to get rid of the pain meds, the anti-depressants, and all other RX’s after learning what I have from this site…I am finally able to resume my gardening and excercising…have lost six dress sizes and actually have a sex life after 5 years of nothing…keep up the great work…Blessings Dixie
November 7th, 2006 at 11:21 am
I am on Armour and have had troubble getting my meds increased so it is like being on a roller coaster. I finally got a referral to an Endocrinologist, but she is afraid to throw me into hyper so she won’t increase my meds either. I have taken it upon myself to do so and I am finally feeling somewhat better after two months at 180mg. She wanted to switch me to a synthetic and I refused. Why is it so hard for them to understand lab results are different for everyone? I may be in what she thinks is the norm, but my symtoms say otherwise. Frustrated!
November 25th, 2006 at 7:59 pm
I too am at my wits end! I could explain my history but all you have to do is review the others to know mine.
At age 44, I am in menopause, high cholesterol, 50 lbs overweight, no libido, cannot focus, pain all the time, exercised so much by running/jogging started to bleed from the intestines….I knew this was madness when it took me several days to recover from a colonoscopy that went wrong a few months ago. I was called to do yet more tests-I went to my dr who in the past appeared to be listening. She said the TSH was normal and states something about calories in and calories out- even people in the concentration camps lost weight-not sure what that was supposed to mean but I knew in her eyes she was not listening at that time nor was she ever.
I said ok-the weight is my fault, I am not doing enough. What about the other symptoms. She said that she suspects it is some type of long term virus and we have not isolated it yet. Long term virus?? I have been fighting this for 6 years. I find it hard to believe any virus lasts 6 years.
Most of my life, I was always a health nut, knew about reading labels and understood them long before it was popular. I served in the military for 4 years and found it invigorating to be so active. I was also very active before and had always went to the gym. Was out of the military for 8 years prior to onset of symptoms and was very active. My dr has me feeling sloppy and lazy to tell me it is my fault. She also told me to stay under 1200 cals. I spent these past 4 days on low cal diet. I went into freak mode. I was just about out of my mind about midnight last night. I got up, ate some cereal and was able to eventually sleep-at least it stopped the dizziness. Today, I am eating very small meals 4 x. I feel much better. Some symptoms are still there. But the worst have subsided. I plan to try levoxyl and armor every other day to see how this goes. I appreciate this site as a sounding board but also very valuable information. I see a glimmer of hope.